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#13353093 Jul 16, 2017 at 10:15 PM
61 Posts
Could leave it, and place it in the Jedi Knight Master block as an Acquired skill.
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#13353178 Jul 16, 2017 at 11:52 PM
21 Posts
First I would like to say thank you to our devs for listening and making sure the server feels like home, and the constant support of all the players here.

Secondly I am sticking by the fact that AI should be a heavier force cost instead of a timer because AI does help in PVE as well as PVP. However in PVP a higher FC would make that said jedi not able to with stand as much because of the high FC on the AI. Now timers do work don't get me wrong in that aspect, however PVE is still in high demand.

Lastly I love the changes for the saber block for ranged toons and with journeymen, jedi can surely fight a melee toon. Now it is noted that a melee toon can still beat a jedi but the jedi does have a better chance. Mainly i'm happy to see journeymen being worked on as well as some other things. My biggest concern is that PVE will be to largely affected with a timer change. Now this is only my opinion :)

Again I will mention thank you to all of our players and everyone commenting on this thread and being very supportive. I play mainly on test when I can but live is still my better half. Thank you everyone :)
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The force shall free me
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#13353304 Jul 17, 2017 at 02:20 AM
8 Posts
Another possibility for AI, is to leave the FC and timer the same. Yet snare the Defender while he is AI. It's basically how they dealt with Mdefender in the CU during live.

Make it so the Defender can only walk (snail speed), and isn't affected by burst run/force run/Squad Leader run.

This option is probably harder to implement right away though, but I liked what it did in the CU.
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#13353450 Jul 17, 2017 at 04:50 AM
4 Posts
If this is addressed somewhere I apologize for missing it. I read a few pages and it seemed very focused on the whole AI thing.

My concern has to do with the potential to break PVE "raid" content with some of the changes that are coming down the pike. Notable in the discussion would be changing cyber chests to Master Bounty hunter only. Currently the cyber chests are the only thing that seem to make many group PVE bunkers doable since so many of them have lightsaber damage bosses that have absurd HAM and thus take a long time to kill. PSGs in PVE i would argue are far less useful as you may go through 6-10 of these in one of these fights. Would it not make more sense to make the PSG a MBH item since the focus there seems to be PVP and they should not likey be running into Jedi with 4m health? Having talked to some folks on TS the past few days the argument that keeps getting brought up is "you are just gonna have to have way bigger groups to do that content" which sounds great BUT realistically on average there are probably a little under 200 peeps on the server and active guilds like ours are typically pulling together 5-8 peeps to do bunker runs from what I have seen. We don't have a population at the moment to support an actual need for a 15-20 person group for a lot of stuff.
So I don't find the bigger group argument to hold a lot of steam.

Sorry that was a very large paragraph. Sorry it is like 4am and the thoughts run together. My concern here is are we going to break the game and fun that people are currently having and potentially alienate the hefty portion of our community that is not involved in the constant jedi vs bh debate?
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#13353493 Jul 17, 2017 at 05:30 AM
4 Posts
Sorry for all the questions not at all trying to be a naysayer here because I love that new content and such are coming and certainly appreciate the hard work that is going into it! However, this feels like a community where asking questions and making suggestions is welcome so here goes.

With the addition of the mounts it seems like Creature handlers could have a nice place in the economy here on R1. Adding the fancier mounts to the token vendor seems to undercut that substantially though. Why hire a Ch if I can get a fancier armored version off the vendor out of the box? It just does not seem to make much sense to me to have them there. The ability to add armor and such to mounts could have been a very cool addition to the CH class. Are there any advantages to the Ch trained versions?

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#13353530 Jul 17, 2017 at 05:13 AM · Edited 1 minute ago
2 Posts
Small note on the MDef AI issue.

I can honestly say I have never had an issue with a MDef as a non Jedi Prof.

Beating AI is a one button press much like the AI itself.

/warcry 'nuff said.

I do appreciate the effort and time involved in balancing a game that went unbalanced for so very long, however I cannot wrap my mind around breaking a entire tree because people haven't used google to figure out how to beat it.

I know the situation you guys are referring to when you discuss "Godmode" but you fail to realize in order for them to do that a bunch of things have to fall into place.

They will not be able to attack, heal, FR or anything else due to the force limitations, so spam cycling AI would be the only thing they are doing thus rendering them useless to do anything else but stay alive.

Any combination of knockdown/states or a single warcry = GG for the MDef, they get a free ride to the nearest cloner.

I have come to love playing here, but honestly I have yet to see any real PVP other than BH on Jedi, so I don't know how much testing was actually done to see if the current state is actually broken, or if people just haven't figured it out.

I say this, and I have never played MDef. My choice is MLS/Mheals/4xx4 Enh and I still wrecked Defenders.


More to the point what I guess I am trying to say is that there will always be an ability that takes skill and planning to deal with, and you cannot always beat it, but you learn.

Whats next, ranged profs can't Dizzy/KD cause its not fair melee profs can't close the gap? <<~ See what I mean..
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#13353862 Jul 17, 2017 at 09:57 AM
11 Posts
#13353530 OneBadBox wrote:

Small note on the MDef AI issue.

I can honestly say I have never had an issue with a MDef as a non Jedi Prof.

Beating AI is a one button press much like the AI itself.

/warcry 'nuff said.

I do appreciate the effort and time involved in balancing a game that went unbalanced for so very long, however I cannot wrap my mind around breaking a entire tree because people haven't used google to figure out how to beat it.

I know the situation you guys are referring to when you discuss "Godmode" but you fail to realize in order for them to do that a bunch of things have to fall into place.

They will not be able to attack, heal, FR or anything else due to the force limitations, so spam cycling AI would be the only thing they are doing thus rendering them useless to do anything else but stay alive.

Any combination of knockdown/states or a single warcry = GG for the MDef, they get a free ride to the nearest cloner.

I have come to love playing here, but honestly I have yet to see any real PVP other than BH on Jedi, so I don't know how much testing was actually done to see if the current state is actually broken, or if people just haven't figured it out.

I say this, and I have never played MDef. My choice is MLS/Mheals/4xx4 Enh and I still wrecked Defenders.


More to the point what I guess I am trying to say is that there will always be an ability that takes skill and planning to deal with, and you cannot always beat it, but you learn.

Whats next, ranged profs can't Dizzy/KD cause its not fair melee profs can't close the gap? <<~ See what I mean..



Good point, but you're only thinking about PvP and missing the bigger point about AI - NPCs and turrets don't /warcry.... There had been much testing, and thus why there is not much PvP to speak of and no one is playing their Jedi's at the current time.

I'm with you as an MLS-based template fan. ;-)

The unfortunate fact is, MDef/AI is currently being exploited and needs to be addressed. Some good ideas here. I still vote for a dmg reduction while AI is active and maybe a force cost increase. MDef *should* be a group-focused uber tank - in a group setting, with proper support (heals, force, and DPS) they should be able to keep up AI and be almost unkillable. but not solo as it is currently.

Just my $.02 =)

Cypherdias/E'on
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#13354027 Jul 17, 2017 at 11:40 AM
61 Posts
Anyone who plays Mdef knows that you can Channel Force on the Fly, if built properly, thus the Force penalty will not fly as a fix. It would end up being a timer change, maybe not as bad as 30 minutes, but there should not be any more back to back spamming of the AI ability.
So instead of 30 minutes, make it 10 minutes that would be tolerable. Also, lets not forget the HOLO, pop one and your force is back full. Too many get-arounds on the Increase Force costs solutions to go that route IMO.



Thornes

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#13354194 Jul 17, 2017 at 01:43 PM · Edited 3 days ago
377 Posts
#13353530 OneBadBox wrote:

Small note on the MDef AI issue.

I can honestly say I have never had an issue with a MDef as a non Jedi Prof.

Beating AI is a one button press much like the AI itself.

/warcry 'nuff said.

I do appreciate the effort and time involved in balancing a game that went unbalanced for so very long, however I cannot wrap my mind around breaking a entire tree because people haven't used google to figure out how to beat it.

I know the situation you guys are referring to when you discuss "Godmode" but you fail to realize in order for them to do that a bunch of things have to fall into place.

They will not be able to attack, heal, FR or anything else due to the force limitations, so spam cycling AI would be the only thing they are doing thus rendering them useless to do anything else but stay alive.

Any combination of knockdown/states or a single warcry = GG for the MDef, they get a free ride to the nearest cloner.

I have come to love playing here, but honestly I have yet to see any real PVP other than BH on Jedi, so I don't know how much testing was actually done to see if the current state is actually broken, or if people just haven't figured it out.

I say this, and I have never played MDef. My choice is MLS/Mheals/4xx4 Enh and I still wrecked Defenders.


More to the point what I guess I am trying to say is that there will always be an ability that takes skill and planning to deal with, and you cannot always beat it, but you learn.

Whats next, ranged profs can't Dizzy/KD cause its not fair melee profs can't close the gap? <<~ See what I mean..



Well thank you for your insight but I have to disagree with a bit of it.

1. I have tested the AI macro with channel and still able to heal and swing my glow stick and take out my targets (This was prior to the modifications we made).

2. As far as your warcry theory as long as you or another player does not hit them to break the warcry you are correctly. But do you know how many times I see melee classes throw a warcry and then either hit their target again or someone else does right after the warcry which then breaks the warcry.

3. Knockdown good point on that but a jedi can still channel and heal in a knockdown state. And if they have healstates then they just stand right back up and start channeling again and swinging their glowstick.

4. As far as other states there are none that stop a jedi from channel or heals when they have states on them.

5. I personally think your grasping at straws with you comment "Whats next, ranged profs can't Dizzy/KD cause its not fair melee profs can't close the gap? <<~ See what I mean.. " as I have played pretty much all combat professions from live to now and many crafting profs. The goal is not to hinder thing or even make things easier its to fix broken mechanics that should be fixed. K/D has always been in game and there is multiple ways to stop that from happening food, tapes, skills etc.

As we have said we don't want to take it out of the game which we could really easy to be honest. We want to fix a broken mechanic that has been broken since live.


Again thank you for your input it is much appreciated.
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#13354201 Jul 17, 2017 at 01:46 PM
377 Posts
Oh and if you have not looked at the patch notes here is what we have done at this time to AI.

Timer has been reduced to 1 min instead of 30 minutes
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#13355050 Jul 18, 2017 at 02:18 AM
8 Posts
So far i can remember i only used AI once in combat with a BH, so wont start this discussion again... as long as MDef works like the tank they were on live...

On the cybernetic i would like to add that indeed groups for bunkers usually aint that big in numbers so the cybernetics do help to be able to work them with a groupo of 8 (even with those numbers we got wiped in the north-west POI on tanaab) without the cybernetics we prolly would only last for like 5 min on the lightsaber1
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#13355328 Jul 18, 2017 at 07:51 AM
7 Posts
I don't quite understand this Jedi Padawans should be squishy that the devs keep rolling out everytime someone says Jedi are under powered.

Fact is Jedi are under powered on this server, let's not forget that as a Padawan Obi'Wan took out a Sith Lord and could easily hold his own in a fight.

Journeyman doesn't exist anywhere in lore except here.

Jedi as they stand now are simply not Alpha by any stretch of the imagination in fact they're a glass cannon that NEEDS defender to compete. Hence why everyone has it.

I don't know what your resolution to this is, but I can tell you on live I had no problems defeating BH that came after me and once I had 1 tree in sabres and technique I was the equivalent of an master elite combat profession. and I don't think I had defender at all.

What I would like to see is this.

Make Jedi Alpha. (as they were on live, even before FRS)
Boost the sabre trees so that MLS isn't a must have (like on live)
Spread Jedi defences out amongst all the trees (so you're not forced into defender) Leave AI as is for MD but maybe tone down damage output as the MD is concentrating on Defence and staying alive. Give them a massive taunt ability that guarantees whichever mob is fighting the MD is focused on him and not others.

If you're not going to boost Jedi that are not in the journeyman/FRS process then remove them all from the terminals. As it stands Jedi cannot compete unless they're MD even then if 5 BH's come after you, you will either run or die.



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#13355403 Jul 18, 2017 at 08:40 AM
479 Posts
Lore and SWG cannot be used in the same sentence.
Obi-won was ready for the knight trials when he killed Maul and you cant say.change this to be like live but change this so its not like live.
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#13355492 Jul 18, 2017 at 09:42 AM
7 Posts
Yes Obi-Wan was indeed ready for the knight trials when he was a Padawan, as should be a fully completed template in SWG.

My point being, for making it like live or not, a full template jedi should be able to hold his own against 5 BH as he could on live, if this isn't possible because you want a FRS Knight to be able to hold his own against 5 BH then take padawans off the terms. Also my point about moving defences throughout the trees was to combat cookie cutter MLS/MD templates, I know it wasn't mixed in on live but I suggested it because something is very wrong with this servers vision of Jedi, we're not supposed to be younglings hitting a training ball.

I did both types of Jedi on live, perma death (which was just uber) and CURB, even in CURB you could defend yourself because you had defence skills from your combat skills or you could run, equip your armour and fight back, and with 2 boxes in polearms you could spin down lairs and survive, on R1 you're still poking them with auto attack at x/x/3/4.

A stacker swordsman is more alpha currently.
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#13355690 Jul 18, 2017 at 12:30 PM · Edited 1 minute ago
12 Posts
I have something else you need to look into Savage. I was testing on test center and checking on my force cost with my gen 2 lightsaber when I was pvping a friend and my 1 handed saber has 7 force power cost with two pearls and one color crystal and I hit Flurry2 and it cost me 24 force cost so I did it a few more times and it kept reading the same amount of force cost. So I went on the live server and did the same thing and it read the same amount of force cost 24. Which is very weird because that's the amount of force I would be using if I didn't use my pearls is there something wrong with the way the sabers are reading force cost.

I'm MLS

Can you please look into this for me. I also used my saber with a pearl that makes me have only 2 force cost and it kept making me use 12 force for the Flurry2.

I don't think the sabers are reading the proper force cost or I could be wrong. Could never figure out why I would run out of force after two missions. I'm full templated. I don't think that ever happen when I was playing in live. Please explain or looking into that thanks.
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#13355725 Jul 18, 2017 at 12:53 PM · Edited 2 days ago
377 Posts
#13355690 bamneely wrote:

I have something else you need to look into Savage. I was testing on test center and checking on my force cost with my gen 2 lightsaber when I was pvping a friend and my 1 handed saber has 7 force power cost with two pearls and one color crystal and I hit Flurry2 and it cost me 24 force cost so I did it a few more times and it kept reading the same amount of force cost. So I went on the live server and did the same thing and it read the same amount of force cost 24. Which is very weird because that's the amount of force I would be using if I didn't use my pearls is there something wrong with the way the sabers are reading force cost.

I'm MLS

Can you please look into this for me. I also used my saber with a pearl that makes me have only 2 force cost and it kept making me use 12 force for the Flurry2.

I don't think the sabers are reading the proper force cost or I could be wrong. Could never figure out why I would run out of force after two missions. I'm full templated. I don't think that ever happen when I was playing in live. Please explain or looking into that thanks.



All attacks both powers and saber have a multiplier for the force cost (which has been there since we started this server) which takes your saber FC * X = your FC for attacks. Each attack is different on the cost.

Also not sure how you are running out of force after two lairs if your full temp to be honest unless you have a very odd template that does not have two master boxes. Or you are using healall2 all the time which will kill your force.
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#13355963 Jul 18, 2017 at 04:00 PM
4 Posts
all the talk about AI causeing a defender to be invincible is rediculus. if a defender is hitting AI over and over agin he will run out of force, and yes possibly take a holo which is only good once every 24 hours, then continue to hit AI he will run out of force agin then he is dead. u guys must not know how to play ur toons if u cant beat a defender. hint- dizzy, kd, warcry, =defender dead. and as far as the defender being tanky on this server is further from the truth than u think.
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#13355971 Jul 18, 2017 at 04:03 PM
479 Posts
Pump before you go beating your chest too hard there is a little skill called channel force. you can spam that and have your force back to full before AI wears off. Then u can re hit AI. God mode....
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#13355983 Jul 18, 2017 at 04:11 PM
4 Posts
first off I'm not beating my chest. 2nd hitting channel takes away from from HAM, once HAM is low u can no longer use channel, yes ur HAM regens but over a long period. and agin once the defender is out of force he can actually be one shotted due to using channel so much. I know this to be fact cause I play a defender, and hacve been in that situation on R1 a few times fighting against NPC's. I can only imagine what it would be like when ur up against 5 or even 10 players constantly beating on u, at that point u only have 2 choices RUN or DIE.

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#13355997 Jul 18, 2017 at 04:23 PM
479 Posts
what you fail to realize as soon as AI wears off they hit it again. by the time their health is back they spam for the 3rd time, regen force and they hit AI again. Does not matter if their ham is low, they have AI on.

But not gonna argue. We are adding a cool down timer for well documented reasons.
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